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Kanmu versus Kammu

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"Kanmu" or "Kammu", which one is right? Ryuch 07:28, 13 Oct 2004 -- diff?

There are many systems of romanization, that is, writing foreign words using the Roman alphabet. One system, which is conventional with the Japanese as well as foreign students learning Japanese, especially from a linguistic perspective, would spell it "Kanmu." Another system, which serves to communicate pronunciation to readers who don't speak Japanese, would write it "Kammu." So rather than a matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of purpose and readership. Personally, I believe "Kammu" better suits me, although "Kanmu" is more conventional among the Japanese and scholars. Fg2 07:56, Oct 13, 2004 -- diff?
Since this is an English wiki page, the romanization system used should be the one which best aids speakers of English. As this is generally the Hepburn System, I would suggest that "桓武"　should be rendered as "Kanmu" not "Kammu", as is the standard for that system. --Antarctic-adventurer (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Re: explanatory spelling note in first paragraph, see discussion thread at Talk:Emperor Temmu#Tenmu versus Temmu. --Tenmei (talk) 19:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In Japanese this emperor is called 桓武天皇（かんむてんのう) = Kanmu Tenno. So the most accurate writing is Kanmu which is also preferred by The Imperial Household Agency. The page name is Emperor Kanmu including on other language wiki pages. I recommend that the name be written as "Kanmu" in this wiki page. -Artanisen (talk) 15:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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An anonymous editor added several links in the "See also" section -- see here. This Punjabi contributor made several similar edits:

  • 07:35, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Emperor Kammu ‎ (→See also)
  • 07:31, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Fujiwara no Kamatari ‎ (→See also)
  • 07:26, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Fujiwara clan ‎ (→See also)
  • 07:22, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Kamakura ‎ (→See also)
  • 07:19, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Mimasaka Province ‎ (→References)
  • 07:17, 18 August 2009 (hist) (diff) Hōnen ‎ (→Early life)

In my view, the following are too much of a stretch in the context of Emperor Kammu:

Whatever the intention, this needs more explanation and discussion. --Tenmei (talk) 12:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DOB

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The first line of the article says he was born in 737, but the infobox says 735. Which is correct? LordAmeth (talk) 05:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Emperor Jimmu which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:MOSJ, and for consistency with Emperor Ninmyō, Empress Genmei and Emperor Tenmu. The Imperial Household Agency also prefers the proposed spellings.[1][2][3][4] Every time I post one of these RMs I look through all the Google Books results and, honestly, I think I've demonstrated thoroughly enough that modern reliable print sources. If anyone else wants to take a shot this time, be my guest. But at this point I don't think it's necessary, because none of these moves have yet been opposed. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:48, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The false translation and edits lack of Neutrality

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The User:Asieon reverted the edit of mine. Difference.

This person cannot understand themselves. I wrote that this person hasn't proper competence of Japanese language. This person is the former indefinitely blocked user. At present, I do not find sock-pappetry of this user. The reason is not sock-pappetry, but false translation and the edits containing false and lack of Neutrality.

I again point out and say that this editor has not proper, enough competence of Japanese language. Japanese language is very difficult language for non-Japanese users. Any languages are difficult for non-native speakers though. But Japanese language is especially very difficult since it is largely different from Indo-European languages and Sino-Tibetan languages, and most languages in the world. Japanese language is isolated language, which has over 120,000,000 native speakers. Korean language is a bit similar to Japanese language, but still largely different. The words are totally different between Japanese and Korean, grammatical structures are as same.

I should say additionally that even for native Japanese speakers, the old Japanese and Kanbun are very difficult, almost impossible to read and understand. The documents and references of the old history of Japan are written in Old Japanese and Kanbun. Nihon Shoki, Kojiki and other documents of old Japan are very difficult to read and understand for this reason. Ones who want to edit the articles relating Japanese history and culture should have proper and sufficient understanding and competence of these (Knowledge of contemporary Japanese and old Japanese , and Kanbun, in addition to deep and vast knowledge and understanding of Japanese culture, history and other various matters.) If ones do not have these knowledge and competence, do not edit (copy edit or other types of edits are possible though. But major edits are impossible for ones who have not knowledge of Japan and Japanese language).

False translation

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I explain the false translation by User:Asieon a bit in details here.

The edit (added) by Asieon:

{{blockquote|{{lang|ja|明年正月十四日辛亥。中納言正三位藤原朝臣小黒麻呂率誄人奉誄。上諡曰天高知日之子姫尊。壬午。葬於大枝山陵。皇太后姓[[Yamato no Fuhito clan|和氏]]。諱[[Takano no Niigasa|新笠]]。贈正一位乙継之女也。母贈正一位大枝朝臣眞妹。后先出自百濟[[Muryeong of Baekje|武寧王]]之子[[Prince Junda|純陀太子]]。皇后容徳淑茂。夙著聲譽。天宗高紹天皇龍潜之日。娉而納焉。生今上。早良親王。能登内親王。寳龜年中。改姓爲高野朝臣。今上即位。尊爲皇太夫人。九年追上尊號。曰皇太后。[[Onjo of Baekje|其百濟]]遠祖[[Chumo of Goguryeo|都慕王]]者。[[Habaek|河伯]]之[[Lady Yuhwa|女]]感日精而所生。皇太后即其後也。因以奉諡焉。}}<br/>The queen mother's clan (surname) was [[Yamato no Fuhito clan|Yamato]] and her name was [[Takano no Niigasa|Niigasa]]. Her majesty had astonishing looks that spoke of maturity that was quickly recognized. She was married to [[Emperor Kōnin]] before he was officially inaugurated when she had his son (Kammu/Yamabe). Her ancestor was the son of King [[Muryeong of Baekje]], [[Prince Junda]]. The [[Onjo of Baekje|king of Baekje]] is said to be the descendant of [[Chumo of Goguryeo|King Dongmyeong]] who hatched from an egg when his [[Lady Yuhwa|mother]], the daughter of [[Habaek]] was touched by sunlight. The queen mother, therefore I, am the direct descendant of them.|author=Emperor Kanmu|title=[[Shoku Nihongi]]|source=Enryaku, 9th year, January 15th}}

The original Kanbun texts are as follows:

明年正月十四日辛亥。中納言正三位藤原朝臣小黒麻呂率誄人奉誄。上諡曰天高知日之子姫尊。壬午。葬於大枝山陵。皇太后姓和氏。諱新笠。贈正一位乙継之女也。母贈正一位大枝朝臣眞妹。后先出自百濟武寧王之子純陀太子。皇后容徳淑茂。夙著聲譽。天宗高紹天皇龍潜之日。娉而納焉。生今上。早良親王。能登内親王。寳龜年中。改姓爲高野朝臣。今上即位。尊爲皇太夫人。九年追上尊號。曰皇太后。其百濟遠祖都慕王者。河伯之女感日精而所生。皇太后即其後也。因以奉諡焉。
(This text is suspicious. 純陀太子 is maybe false or wrong. In original text of Shoku Nihongi, 純陁太子 is used. See ja:純陀太子).
The meanings of the texts are as follows (a bit simplified):
00 明年正月十四日辛亥。中納言正三位藤原朝臣小黒麻呂率誄人奉誄。
[Introduction] Fujiwara no ason Oguromaro says the Condolence/Lament (for the late Empress Dowager) on 14, January, in the year Shingai.
01 上諡曰天高知日之子姫尊。 02 壬午。葬於大枝山陵。
01] (The empress dowager was) given the Posthumous name ie., 天高知日之子姫尊. 02] (She was) buried at Ōe mount tomb, in the year of Jingo.
03a 皇太后姓和氏。03b 諱新笠。03c 贈正一位乙継之女也。03d 母贈正一位大枝朝臣眞妹。
03a] Surname of Empress Dowager is Yamato. 03b] Name is Niigasa. 03c] daughter of Ototsugu. 03d] mother is Ōe no ason Maimo.
04 后先出自百濟武寧王之子純陀太子。
04] Empress is descendant of Crown prince Junda, son of King Bunei of Kudara (Baekju)
05 皇后容徳淑茂。夙著聲譽。
05] Empress has figure of virtues, of rich beauty. (It was) well-known (among people) from the early time.
06a 天宗高紹天皇龍潜之日。娉而納焉。06b 生今上。早良親王。能登内親王。寳龜年中。
06a] When Emperor (Kōnin) wasn't yet enthroned, (she) married with (him). 06b] Gave birth to Emperor (Kanmu), royal prince Sawara, royal princess Noto, at the Hōki period.
07 改姓爲高野朝臣。
07] Surname was changed to Takano no ason.
08a 今上即位。尊爲皇太夫人。08b 九年追上尊號。曰皇太后。
08a] When Emperor (Kanmu) was enthroned, (she became) Bunin (Consort) Dowager. 08b] 9 years (later), higher title was given, ie. Empress Dowager.
09 其百濟遠祖都慕王者。河伯之女感日精而所生。皇太后即其後也。
09] Her far ancestor of Kudara (Baekju), King Tobo, who was born when the daughter of Kahaku (River god) was inspired by Sun spirit. Empress Dowager is descendant of him.
10 因以奉諡焉。
10] According to this (episode), the Posthumous name was decided.
The Structure of the Texts:
00] (Introduction:) Fujiwara no Oguromaro says the Condolence that:
01] Posthumous name, 02] Burial place and time
03a] (original) Surname, 03b] Name, 03c] Father, 03d] Mother
04] Ancestor
05] Figures
06a] Marriage, 06b] Sons and daughter
07] (present) Surname
08a] (first) title as consort, 08b] (present) title as Consort
09] The episode of ancestor
10] Posthumous name was selected according to the above episode.
As shown above, it is very clear that all the entries in the Texts are selected and essential. They have the same importance.
The above contents and entries are clear for people who understand the Kanbun texts. But on the other hand, it is not clear at all, for those who do not read and understand Japanese language texts, Old Japanese and Kanbun texts. Even for the native Japanese speakers, the above texts are difficult to read and understand.

The false English translation texts posted by User:Asieon (This is NOT mistranslation, but False):

A] The queen mother's clan (surname) was [[Yamato no Fuhito clan|Yamato]] and her name was [[Takano no Niigasa|Niigasa]]. B] Her majesty had astonishing looks that spoke of maturity that was quickly recognized. C] She was married to [[Emperor Kōnin]] before he was officially inaugurated when she had his son (Kammu/Yamabe). D] Her ancestor was the son of King [[Muryeong of Baekje]], [[Prince Junda]]. E] The [[Onjo of Baekje|king of Baekje]] is said to be the descendant of [[Chumo of Goguryeo|King Dongmyeong]] who hatched from an egg when his [[Lady Yuhwa|mother]], the daughter of [[Habaek]] was touched by sunlight. F] The queen mother, [False-1]therefore I, am the direct descendant of them.| [False-2] author=Emperor Kanmu |title=[[Shoku Nihongi]]|source=Enryaku, 9th year, January 15th}}
A] The queen mother's clan (surname) was [[Yamato no Fuhito clan|Yamato]] and her name was [[Takano no Niigasa|Niigasa]].
B] Her majesty had astonishing looks that spoke of maturity that was quickly recognized.
C] She was married to [[Emperor Kōnin]] before he was officially inaugurated when she had his son (Kammu/Yamabe).
D] Her ancestor was the son of King [[Muryeong of Baekje]], [[Prince Junda]].
E] The [[Onjo of Baekje|king of Baekje]] is said to be the descendant of [[Chumo of Goguryeo|King Dongmyeong]] who hatched from an egg when his [[Lady Yuhwa|mother]], the daughter of [[Habaek]] was touched by sunlight.
F] The queen mother, [False-1] therefore I, am the direct descendant of them.| [False-2] author=Emperor Kanmu |title=[[Shoku Nihongi]]|source=Enryaku, 9th year, January 15th}}
Comparison with my translation:
A == 03a and 03b : ("queen mother" is false. Possibly output of machine translation)
B =~ 05 : (not correct. possibly machine translation)
C =~ 06a and 06b : (lack of prince Sawara and princess Noto)
D =~ 04
E ~- (09) : (but false translation, Composition by the editor, Original Research and fantasy)
F -- no Correspondent Texts
False-1 and False-2 -- False (There is no 1st personal pronoun in the original texts. The author of these texts is not Emperor Kanmu.)
There are so many and many problematic sentences that I cannot mention or point out one by one. Everything seem to be wrong, false, fantasy.
Please check my translation. As a matter of course, I cannot be perfect, still difficult to read old Japanese and Kanbun. so possibly I made mistake in translation. But the stream of texts is maybe correct.
01 is the Posthumous name of Niigasa (mother of Emperor Kanmu), 天高知日之子姫尊 (あめ・たかしる・ひのこ・ひめ・の・みこと, Ame-takashiru-hinoko-hime-no-mikoto). 09 is the reason why this Posthumous name was selected.

The portion F of User:Asieon is as follows:

The queen mother, therefore I, am the direct descendant of them.

In the original Texts, there are no words or sentences corresponding to this F statement. This is not mistranslation. But intentional false translation, or fantasy, propaganda, or other non-good faith edit. Who is "I" in this false translation? "False-2" says "Author: Emperor Kanmu". It means this "I" is Emperor Kanmu. Then the above statement is "The queen mother, therefore I, Emperor Kanmu, am the direct descendant of them." But there is no such sentence in the original texts.

The original texts say:

04 后先出自百濟武寧王之子純陀太子。
04] Empress is descendant of Crown prince Junda, son of King Bunei of Kudara (Baekju).

This is clearly written in the Shoku Nihongi. But this is not considered as historical fact. The Japanese standard Encyclopedia cited in Kotobank do not show this as a historical fact. Father of Niigasa (grandfather of emperor Kanmu) is 和乙継 (Yamato no Ototsugu). Kotobank says:

和乙継 (?－?) 奈良時代の官吏。祖先は百済(くだら)(朝鮮)の人。
Yamato no Ototsugu (? - ?) An official in the Nara period. His ancestor is people of Kudara (Baekje), Chōsen (korea). Ototsugu in Kotobank.
But no mention that he is descendant of the royal family of Baekje.

Mother of Niigasa (grandmother of emperor Kanmu) is 土師真妹 (Haji no Maimo). There is no page of Haji no Maimo in Kotobank.

The representative encyclopedia of Japan do not say that Niigasa is a descendant of the royal family of Baekju. But the statement in the Shoku Nihongi clearly writes Niigasa is a descendant of Crown prince Junda, son of King Bunei of Kudara (Baekju). It means this statement is not considered a historical fact.

Sorry for long explanation. I do not want to write these things. (It is really hard work for me). I said the simple and short message that: the editor has not proper competence of Japanese language. I hope by this message, the editor (user Asieon) gets aware of their lack of competence. But not. The most people, who have not knowledge of Japanese language and history of Japan, possibly do not get aware of this false translation. To make clear of it, the long explanations are required.

As to the User:Asieon, they don't seem to understand the reason of their indefinite block. The block is essentially not due to sock-pappetry. It is due to their behaviors are against the basic guidelines of the Wikipedia. Reliable Sources, Not Original Research, Neutrality, Constructive edits etc. Posting the apparent false insisting is against the guidelines.-- Flora fon Esth (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You are clearly not a native speaker of English, nor am I a native speaker of Japanese. However, it is absolutely unprofessional to put words into other people's mouths. You stated that the information was originally "Vandalism". I said it was not, because it does not constitute as one. You said in an invisible comment that your reasoning was due to "sockpuppetry", which again has been resolved. I even stated that you can add more information if needed.
"This does not classify as vandalism. If information is needed to be changed, feel free to do so. Also, account was redeemed by an admin, therefore, sockpuppetry reasoning is now void."
That is all I said. I even added your suggestion, crediting your name and your contribution. Your accusation of my proficiency in Japanese has NOTHING to do with the actions I took previous to this informative, but misdirected comment.
"The block is essentially not due to sock-pappetry. It is due to their behaviors are against the basic guidelines of the Wikipedia. Reliable Sources, Not Original Research, Neutrality, Constructive edits etc. Posting the apparent false insisting is against the guidelines."
This is factually not true. Please refrain from spreading false information just to make your arguments look better. Sockpuppetry and vandalism are completely different accusations. I don't understand why you are making this personal, but I will be the bigger person and refrain from commenting on it any further. Asieon (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I see many problems in your translation as well.
01/05/06 - Are already mentioned. Though it is not word by word, the essence of the message is there.
04 后先出自百濟武寧王之子純陀太子。
　04] Empress is descendant of Crown prince Junda, son of King Bunei of Kudara (Baekju)
There is no King Bunei(?) of Kudara(?). That is not a name of a king nor a kingdom. 武寧王 (King Bunei) is Muryeong of Baekje and 百濟 (Kudara) is the kingdom of Baekje.
09 其百濟遠祖都慕王者。河伯之女感日精而所生。皇太后即其後也。
09] Her far ancestor of Kudara (Baekju), King Tobo, who was born when the daughter of Kahaku (River god) was inspired by Sun spirit. Empress Dowager is descendant of him.
Again, King Tobo (都慕王) is Dongmyeong of Goguryeo, Kahaku (河伯) is Habaek, the daughter of Kahaku is Lady Yuhwa also known as "Habaeknyeo (河伯女)". It seems to me that your argument revolves around literal translations of the passages found in the Shoku Nihongi, where for convenience sake, I believe the overall meaning behind the statement is more important here.
Kammu is clearly stating or emphasizing his holy connections to his ancestors to honor his late mother AND her clan. Otherwise, there would be no reason to add this piece of information alluding to people who have nothing to do with the Japanese Imperial line. Not only does he encompass his immediate Japanese lineage, he also stretches into the kings of ancient Baekje, the founder, and even the King of Goguryeo, his mother from Buyeo and a river god.
Emperor Kanmu (Japan) → Takano no Niigasa (Japan) → Prince Junda (Japan) → Muryeong of Baekje (Baekje) → Onjo of Baekje (Baekje) → Dongmyeong of Goguryeo (Goguryeo) → Lady Yuhwa (Buyeo) → Habaek (God)
Again, I will concede the point that the translation isn't perfect, but that can be fixed. The only reason why the information was there in the first place was to indicate Kanmu's show of interest in his foreign bloodline. That fact is evident in his foreign/domestic policies revolving around other clans of Baekje origins PLUS his marriage to other Korea-originating clan women. This was just to preface why he was so open-minded. Asieon (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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